A friend of mine in New Zealand presented a letter to the Auckland Council’s Social and Community Development Forum about transsexuals. The letter was about the plight of the trannsexuals in New Zealand, the differences between transsex and transgender people and groups and about one transgender group who really doesn’t do much for the transsexed.
This other group had a representative at the meeting. There are members of this group who actually considered the word transsexual to be antiquated and no longer used. Obviously my friend had a problem with this as do I. I had an online chat with one member of the other group and she was firmly convinced that transsexual was a word going out of use.
My friend and others will insure that doesn’t happen. She, and others, has had problems with the TG group so they formed a TS group called Transsexuals of New Zealand. So far it’s just a Facebook group but it is gathering steam and going strong. Now they want to make the group formal so they can be organized when making presentations to political organizations and other groups.
The term LGBT is now one of the older terms used. I think the Toronto Pride organizers say their events are for those LGBTTIQQ2SA which stands for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Transsexual, Intersex, Queer, Questioning, Two Spirited and Alliies. I guess that in Toronto the term transsexual is still in use. But my point is that transsexed people are a small slice of that overall group. Gays and Lesbians make up something like 5% of our population. Transsexuals are less than one percent. The highest percentage I’ve heard is somewhere around 0.2% and is more likely much less.
At 0.2% that would make the transsexual population of New Zealand around 8800 people. That is a guess at best. My friend’s number was 5000 but she admits that’s a guess too. No one really knows so we’re relying on speculation. Granted this speculation is from sources that should have a better idea than I.
Transgender is an umbrella term to describe people who have tendencies that vary from the gender norm. The key to understanding this is the root word ‘gender.’ Gender refers to characteristics that may be considered masculine or feminine. So gender is something you can kinda put on or take off. Then there are the transsexual or transsex people. They are people who either believe they are born to the wrong sex or born with biological characteristics of the brain that are suited to the sex opposite their outward appearance.
Here’s the problem, transsexuals are a very small segment of the population. While the numbers for transgender are about as reliable as those for those transsexed it’s estimated that 20% of men find cross dressing pleasureable to some degree. However, most of these men don’t fully dress and only stick to a few items like bras or panties or gridles. How many men cross dress regularly isn’t known. Some guesses are from between 2 to 10%. That is a rather wide margin. If we take the lowest number of 2% that’s 100 times larger than the best number of 0.2% for the transsexed. That spread is most likely much larger.
This is where it gets kinda complicated. Why do cross dressers want the transsex group to be included under the trangedender umbrella? From the transsexed point of view it makes no sense as we are very different. Transsexed individuals are considered to have gender identity disorder also known as gender dysphoria. This is considered a medical condition that has recognised treatments consisting of hormones and surgery. As such there is a certain amount of credibility to this condition.
On the other hand, cross dressing, the biggest slice of the transgender umbrella, is considered a fetish and has no credibility at all. The only reason transsexed people can understand they are wanted under the umbrella is to give the fetishists some credibility. Are you following me?
Many transsexuals have no desire to be under this umbrella because the needs of those who are transsexed are completely different from those who are transgender. This is an over simplification but transsexed people need medical intervention to get what they need. The majority of transgender, male cross dressers to be specific, need a new dress once in a while for sexual excitement. Oh, did I mention that transsexed people, after their operation, run the risk of never achieving orgasm again. If that alone doesn’t show the huge difference between the two groups then nothing will.
Another reason that the transsexed don’t want to be under the transgender umbrella is public perception. The bathroom debate is one example. Whenever a government considers adding gender identity or gender expression to their human rights code the image of a man in a dress always comes up. There are these strange ideas that cross dressing men want to use these locations to get their rocks off. From there it’s not a huge leap to rape, child abuse or other forms of sexual assault. The belief transphobic groups want to foster is the additions to the human rights codes will somehow magically grant men the legal means to get away with criminal conduct. Obviously this is totally wrong and is a terrible image but it doesn’t make life any easier for transitioning transsex women who need to use the washroom.
The fight goes on. I really wish the new group luck. If I were to win the lottery I’d certainly be doing what I could to get them started but then they are my friends.
Teresa
I find it humourous that a facebook friend of mine who had her operation in Montreal posted this:
I had such a wonderful time in Montreal. Even though I had just undergone major surgery, the feeling of finally being complete and in the right body, in addition to the wonderful staff and the other girls I met there easily made it one of the best experiences of my life.
I find it humourous because another blogger has made it seem that I imply that those without the operation are not women. The other blogger really needs to grow up.
Complete Teresa 
Thanks for this hunn. Im not so much anti TG as I have realised we TS have been absorbed and negated here by the TG. Its not elitism or separatism but more realising we are diffferent and those differance are clearly to hard to work as one together. Am happy to work alongside tho.
But when I go to a council gender forum and see and hear the word Transsexuals mentioned twice, and everyone told to use Trans*(with a flower) it angered me.
TG and TS see different priorities as to what is important. We are hugely different.
Thanks hunn
Yes, Racheal, we are different. I don’t want to deride cross dressers and only want to point out that their goals are different from ours. Like you I’m quite willing to work alongside them as TG/TS but not included with them as TG. We’ll lose our small voice in the crowd as most of them want and need different things.
However, when I read that TG need hormones and surgery I have to speak out and say this isn’t right as most TG have no desire for this and transsexual individuals do. I won’t say I’m 100% sure but it does seem to me that the much larger TG group want the TS included as a way to legitimize their fetish.
One of my fears is those who identify as cross dressers (or TG) and really are transsexual persons where they just feel more comfortable dressing and living as the sex opposite to that assigned at birth might be getting the wrong information from the rest of the TG members. It up to us to tell people that TS are different from TG in hopes that those who need to hear the message will.
Teresa
I have just finished reading your post, and while i am cross dresser, i agree that the needs of Transexuals are much different to those who claim the TG label should be enough. TS be they, M2F or F2M as your rightly point out need the intervention of medical science to change the exterior panels to match the interior of their being.
My only issue is that there are CD’s out there who don’t dress for sexual pleasure which i believe your statement “The majority of transgender, male cross dressers to be specific, need a new dress once in a while for sexual excitement” lumps all cross dressers together as nothing more than people out to get their jolies.., i am not one of these sexual deviants. Personally, i dress as its a way for me to relax after a tough day and to express a different side of me. I have no desire to transition permanently, but i do like to let my feminine side out. I have the utmost respect for TS as its not in the vast majority of cases an easy life, but something that needs to happen for self sanity.
When i dress, i try my damn hardest to make sure there is no stray body hair, and that im dressed appropriately for what i am doing, my female wardrobe is full of normal everyday fashions, and not all fetishwear and costumes, my shoe collection does include some 5″ heels, but they are few and far between as i try to blend in and not stand out and say look at me, there are no cocktail dresses and 5″+ heels to go to the diary, the only time a cocktail/formal dress comes out is if i am going out to an event.
While i dont claim that every CD is like me, and there are many CD who use the TG banner to try to justify things, i personally know that i am CD, and would rather use CD than TG to identify.
Tia, thank you for your input. To be honest I don’t know a lot about cross dressers as I’m neither one nor am I a doctor, psychologist or psychiatrist. However, I and my friends in New Zealand do not believe we should be assimilated by the TG Borg (as one friend calls it) and I do think that many CDs are fetishists.
Teresa
Teresa, dont get me wrong, i agree that there are many out there for whom Cross Dressing is all about getting a sexual thrill, Im not a member of most of the ‘Advocacy’ groups out there simply because from what i have seen and read of them on their own pages they are out to use their advocacy to justify their identity. I know im a cross dresser and i make no bones about it, I agree with you on the view that TS shouldnt be assimilated to the TG umbrella as the needs of TS are unique to TS and 99% of TG dont understand what TS need. I as a CD will happily stand in support of TS not being part of the TG umbrella
I know a bunch of non-binary people, who are currently on hormones or have had surgery, who would disagree with the notion that only transsexuals need those services to bring their bodies into line with their gender identity. The “crossdresser” organization that you speak of currently has no crossdressers as members that I am aware of. Not a single one, and I am in a position to know that. Almost everyone at that organization is either on HRT or wants to be. Come to a meeting and you will see that is true.
I was recently banned from Transsexuals of New Zealand, despite having not broken any rules. In fact I never even made a post there or said a word. Since I am by your definition (not mine) a transitioning transsexual, it seems a little hypocritical to set up that site as a centre of free speech when it’s really just an elitist club.
First of all I was very careful to say “This is an over simplification but transsexed people need medical intervention to get what they need.” I was also very careful to add “The majority of transgender….” I made no finite definitions so I don’t understand where you get the phrase “only transsexuals.” In fact I made no mention of any other group after the second paragraph. Most of this post dealt with transgender and transsexual people and how their needs are different. Most of your comment is a complete misrepresentation of what I said.
The second point is, to my knowledge, there has only one person been banned from the Facebook group and I seem to remember I was the one to do so. The one I banned was there for one reason and that was to sow discord. If you were banned when saying nothing then that is wrong and I hope you re-apply.
One more thing, I’m also a member of the group you say you belong and yet I can’t find any tallestgirl among the membership. You apparently have invited me to your group’s meeting to see for myself but that name doesn’t seem to belong to the group you’re inviting me too. Honesty is a quality that I look for in a person. My name is Teresa and I do not hide it. What is yours?
Teresa
Hiding is a pretty strong term for using an internet nick like 99% of everyone on the web. Click on my nick and it will take you to my wordpress page where my full real name is right there on the banner for all to see.
I was most certainly removed from TSofNZ for no reason whatsoever, and I know a few others who were too. Thanks for inviting me back but I think I’ll decline.
I can only take guesses at who you are because of your hidding.
I am an admin on TSofNZ FB page and there are only two people who have ever been booted by moderaters. I removed one 2days ago because he was clearly under 18. He had a picture of his school ID up. He was making childish posts.
The other was removed sometime back as they were continually making anti transsexual comments and seeking continually to create an arguement.
We did have another person who was clearly not TS and was continually arguing. They removed themselves from the room and posted elsewhere that they were booted. They werent as all mods agreed they hadnt booted them. They likely would have been booted in the end as they were clearly stirring and not TS or a supporter.
Why would any non TS non binary people wish to take hormones to make them more binary? Male or female. That is just stupid. Why would they have surgery to become more male or female, more binary? stupid.
I have no issue with Non TS, TG people or trans with a flower folk. They believe in the spectrum which is fine and their right. They may not see themselves as male or female so why take hormones and have surgeries to make themselves more male or more female. That is up to them but that is why the distinction between TS and non TS, TG people needs to made clear. So people understand the vast differances.
TSofNZ is definitely not elitiest or separatist. I have no idea why you would have been booted if you never made a post or said a word there. Sorry but cant see that happening. Why would you have been booted?
What is this group you belong to and would like us to attend? I’d be happy to be apart of it. Genderbridge has expelled many Transsexuals merely because their opinions differed and werent welcome, now that is separatism and discrimination.
TSofNZ is the only FB group that has transperancy. All can see what is posted on our wall. We arent hidding anything. We arent elitist or a secret society.
We have expelled many transsexuals? Name, I dunno, three.
I dare you to even name one who was actually a member of the organization, as opposed to someone who just trolled the facebook page.
Expelled or felt forced to leave both the GB group and/or the GB FB page.
I can do better than 3.
Karen, Jazmine, Tyrone, Sarah, Flowin, Jacquie, Kelly, Amanda and myself.
I wont discuss them personally any more in public.
They all expressed their concerns and opinions as TS and were berated for it.
Ally, you werent booted from TSofNZ. Jazmine remembers. You removed yourself and then messaged her stating you hoped her new group wouldnt kill to many.
Lovely comment.
Only two people have ever been booted from it but some people come and go.
And then we have had some who have claimed falsely they were booted when in fact they werent.
Childish act to make it appear we are the nasties.
I have to add that if the TG organisation you speak of is the same one Teresa is speaking of, and they have no CD and ban Transsexuals who express thier opinion, isnt that really elitist? Separatist? Its pretty laughable that someone from that groupd would label us so when they themselves clearly are the elitists.
People who live in glasses house shouldnt throw stones.
And as we discussed at or formation meeting Transsexuals are usually honest open people who use their real names proudly and dont hide. ‘Gem’ has reasons and expressed them.
Non TS TG are where you will find the closed groups and anonymous names as people feel ashamed and need to hide.
I use the term ‘non TS, TG’ because there are some TS who are happy to put themselves under the TG umbrella.
Hi Rachael (if I didn’t already know your last name I wouldn’t have a clue who you were btw….people in glass houses?) “Felt forced to leave” actually means they decided to leave for their own reasons. That is not the same as being kicked out so stop being disingenuous.
I left TSofNZ back then, but I rejoined a couple of months ago and was added by Teresa. I woke up one morning to find myself removed with no reason or explanation.
I stand by that comment I made back then too. I really hope you people don’t kill anyone. I left the group after being viciously bullied by people who I had foolishly shared my own personal traumas with in the hope that I would be supported, only to have them used against me to belittle me. In my experience you have used the same tactics against far more vulnerable young trans people who just happen to say the wrong thing on that site. Some of you appear to have no limits to what you will say to people to “toughen them up.”
Genderbridge is a closed group for a reason. People in transition may not be out to family, friends and loved ones yet and may be looking for a private place to talk. I notice TSofNZ recently lost a mamber for this very reason. Much of our core business is helping trans people through transition. Your personal vendetta against a volunteer-run charitable support group isn’t doing you any favours.
I don’t really care what you say or do but this worries me: if you don’t and aren’t willing to understand why non-binary people and other people who don’t fit into your boxes might need HRT and surgery, how can you possibly provide education to health providers? I am concerned that if they implement your ideas there will be more gatekeeping, more difficulties and more heartbreak for any trans people who don’t fit your narrow definitions.
Anyway, I’m not going to reply to any more of your posts because I know you won’t listen anyway. I’d be glad to talk more with Teresa though.
How are you so able to decide who is TS, Rachael? What are the criteria? Surgery or what?
I dont decide. Its that easy. Gender Dysphoria is a recognised medical condition.
IMHO a Transsexual is someone born of one gender but identifies as the opposite gender. They will have strong desire to alter their body to match the gender they identify as.Surgery is not a criteria but they will have the desire to have surgery but maybe stopped by financial or medical reasons. That doesnt negate that they will desire surgery and hormone treatment.
If they (MtF) have the ‘extra’ still and use it as a male during intercourse then clearly they do not show feminie traits and desires. Same with a FtM who engage in penetrative sexual intercourse and give birth to babies. They arent showing the desire to be male.
You well know who I am and so do most.
“Felt forced to leave” actually means what it says. They didnt want to leave and yes did decide to leave but only after they were berated and intimidated, had a gutsful and it was clear others werent interested in them expressing their view point and beliefs. They were ostracised and left because the group was a waste of time for them.
I have no idea why you were booted. You say you were seriously bulled etc yet previously you claimed you never posted or interacted in the group. If you had no interaction in the group, how could anyone in the group have bullied you?
I have always said there is a place for all groups. Some people will click bettter in one group than in another while others wont like that group at all.
GB has shown it isnt a group for Transsexuals like myself, Jasmine, Karen, Tyronne, Sarah etc and I totally acknowledge that for those who want to remain hidden and cant face the real world yet, then GB is the better option for them than TSofNZ.
I have major concern for the way GB is helping young emotive, vulnerable TG to transition. Encouraging them to just be whoever, whatever they want to be and not guiding them is dangerous in my opinion and in 5 or 10yrs time, I believe there is likely to be some serious mental health issues for some of these.
It isnt nice but who will kill the most Ally? I hope no one is killed and dont wish it on you or others.
I keep my personal beef with GB aside but I have sort several times through GB and Sissy Rock to resolve the issues. GB bury their head in the sand and refuse to settle it and so it festers. My door is always open to resolving it. GB labelled me homophobic and transphobic amongest other things. I have been called elitist and separatist. Others have been labelled Nazi’s and worse. All this is discriminatory and marginalises. And its totally wrong.
TSofNZ was born of a need. Clearly judging by the rapid growth GB was not catering to a sector of the TG/TS world. TSof NZ in 6months has achieved more than GB has for the community in a long time. We are out there, open and visible. People are asking questions and learning, understanding.
Good luck
Okay, let’s watch the name calling here. Words like elitist, separatist and especially Nazi are uncalled for. The whole point of this blog is put my two cents in on why I think the term transsexual has no business being under the transgender umbrella. I’m strongly for the group Transsexuals of New Zealand but not if it’s going to be bickering with Genderbridge. I’ve been talking to one of the organizers of Genderbridge and I’d like to see the two groups working closer especially where discrimination is concerned. The fact that the New Zealand government only pays for 4 surgeries every 2 years is a outrage as well. Well girls, pull up your big girl panties, step into you big girl boots and start kicking up some shit to get things fixed!!!
Teresa
I called no one those names, its what I and others have been labelled.
I have always sort to resolve the differances. Its others who have just sent me to coventry.
I have always said I will work in with any TG group as long as it isnt detrimental to Transsexuals.
My door is always open to discussion and to resolve this.
Oh, I am willing to understand why someone who is non binary would seek to take hormones and have surgeries to make them fit more to the binary they dont believe in. Please explain. I cant understand sorry why a person who believes in the non binary wouldnt just be happy in who they are but would try to make them more match the binary.
One last thing – as to who or who is not a transsexual is something for a mental health professional to decide. What is done with a person’s sexual apparatus pre-op has nothing to do with it as far as I’ve read. Any further comments that are petty bickering on this subject will be deleted.
Hi Teresa, I’m all for people keeping their identifying terms and I have had this conversation quite a few times with TSofNZ, that calling and associating with the term Transexual should not be taken away and never should, it after all makes sense. And is medically recognized.
What I find personally difficult to understand is why certain groups of Transsexuals find it difficult to co exist and feel comfortable when being referred to as Transgender (that being the umbrella term) which is more often referred to as Trans* (where the Asterix is a wild card for what ever term you associate with) Be it TransMan TransWoman TransSexual Genderqueer.
Yes. like Tallestgirl I do associate with GB and mean no ill will to TSofNZ me and Racheal have had discussions around this 🙂
And being that I have seen folks from GB who clearly require medical aid in order to fit their bodies like myself a Trans Woman, I see no reason why we should be fighting to be kept entirely separate. After all we as Transsexuals and them as Genderqueer are fighting for the same medical assistance to treat their Gender Dysphoria.
I’m going to go out on a personal opinion here. I do not believe cross dressers to be transgendered, Nor do cross dressers want or need medical assistance with Gender Dysphoria. Often because they are only doing it for performance, fetish, entertainment, or to express a different side of themselves.
Those I personally include and have been taught to understand exist under the transgender umbrella are only those that feel their minds do not sync up with their bodies, those that will seek medical or psychological care in order to help themselves feel comfortable in their bodies.
This includes woman who do not get bottom surgery because they feel that others recognize them as who they are inside with out it. And the same for men who do the same, often in the mans case it’s because current surgical procedures are not adequate enough (this is even recognized by the fact that only top surgery is needed for a birth certificate change in the Trans mans case)
Gender Dysphoria does not discriminate in who it affects so why should we discriminate against who we support, especially when we are seeking the same thing.